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Let's talk about the best Fire-type attacker

Let me say first that I've researched the best Fire-type attacker here, and in the Q&A section consistently see Flareon mentioned as the best.

But looking at the stats, I'm wondering why Moltres or Entei don't get mentioned.

A recap of the ATK/STA stats (I'm ignoring DEF because I'm looking for the best Fire-type attacker)...

Moltres: 251/180
Entei: 235/230
Flareon: 246/130

All three have access to the best Fire-type moveset (Fire Spin/Overheat), so moves aren't an issue.

Moltres has both higher attack and higher stamina than Flareon, so it seems to me it should be a no-brainer as a better Fire-type attacker than Flareon.

Entei isn't as easy because it has lower attack than the other two, but a lot more stamina. This means its damage will be a bit less but it will last a lot longer in a fight. When your Pokémon faints and has to be replaced, you aren't doing any damage at all. So there may be some value to considering Entei as the best.

So what are your thoughts? Can you make any sound, rational, reasonable argument for Flareon being better than Moltres? What about Entei? Is there another Fire-type that you think deserves a mention?

Asked by JJR5126 years 4 months ago
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Answers

by aSp 6 years 5 months ago

There isn't much between them, but I will let others list of their virtues in detail.

One question though...you talk of their ability to last in a fight, using only stamina as a factor, but have chosen to remove defence from the equation. Why?

The ability to last in a fight is determined by both stamina and defence, and is usually listed as 'bulk' (a combo of both stamina and defence).
Is there a particular reason you wish to remove defence from the discussion?

One major difference I will point out is that Moltres has flying typing to consider, which gives it an edge in many of the meta relevant match ups that you would use a fire type for.

I would suggest that one reason that Flareon is considered a better choice is the availability of Flareon and candy to power up...most people would already have at least one Flareon if not an army - legendaries are not as readily available to all players equally.

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I'm not sure where you see people saying Flareon is the best, except in comments that are months old. Moltres has been the strongest fire-type attacker since summer. It is indeed a no-brainer and I think most people are aware of it.

Entei vs. Flareon is more interesting. Despite the lower attack, Entei actually outperforms Flareon in simulations about 50% of the time. This could partly be due to its lower defense that lets it generate energy faster, and it can also be in part because its higher overall bulk lets it more reliably get off multiple Overheats, where Flareon is a lot more fragile. Depending on matchup, Flareon will generate a bit better DPS, but the difference is small enough that usually you should pick Entei over it anyway.

Regarding the difference between Moltres and Entei then, Moltres gets even better in most relevant matchups due to its secondary typing. It double resists grass and bug and also potential Earthquake from Metagross (speculation, but could be a thing). Entei however is a better pick against ice-types.

EDIT: The upside of Flareon is that you can get it at L30 without stardust. It has the best ratio of usefulness to resource cost.

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by pipjay 6 years 5 months ago

When were you doing your research? Whatever comments you were looking at must have been before raids.

Moltres is the highest DPS fire pokemon.

Flareon is really close behind it in DPS, but is more fragile. It is still a good choice if you don't have a legendary fire attacker.

Entei has lower DPS, but is much tankier (def*HP) so it will last longer. Its huge HP reserve will also allow it to gain more energy.

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I don't think here Flareon has been "consistently mentioned as the best fire type".

Moltres offers the highest fire type DPS in game, and because of its flying type it has resistances against a lot of the things fire counters. If it's all about doing more damage in a given time and especially if tight on time in Raids, Moltres is a beast.

Entei has less attack but is bulkier, and has access to Flamethrower which is better suited for gym battles (overheat is usually overpowered for regular gym battles).

Also, tankiness is DEF x Stamina so when you talk about how long some attackers can last in battles, both stats should be mentioned.

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In reply to your answer you will see Flareon mentioned more simply because it's the easiest to power up...legendary candies are harder to come by so it makes sense to power up Flareon and make moltres or entei your project.

For myself I would grade them as follows mainly because I use them for raiding.
1) Entei
2) Moltres
3) Flareon

It's better to have a tanky pokemon like Entei which is also able to fire off a few overheats before it faints unlike the much more glassier Flareon.

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by JJR512 6 years 5 months ago

To everyone asking where I got the impression that Flareon is most often given as the best Fire-type here, I got that impression by using the search function here on this website to search for “fire type”. Ignoring the first few ad results, I found several results which all mention Flareon in terms of being the best Fire-type.

As for why I ignored the Defense stat...I'll admit I must have misunderstood how the stats work. I thought Defense was only important when a Pokémon was a defender in a gym, and was irrelevant when a Pokémon was being used to attack a gym or raid boss.

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For calculating damage, you take both the attack stat of the pokemon doing the attack and the defense stat of the pokemon taking the attack. This happens the same way regardless of whether the pokemon is the attacker or defender in the battle.

So Dragonite's Dragon Tail hits like a truck whether it's attacking or defending. And Cloyster takes very little damage from anything whether it's attacking or defending.

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I understand that. That's why I thought Defense wasn't relevant in the attacker.

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I'm not sure you do if you thought defense wasn't relevant. The same damage formula is used for the attacker's attacks and the defender's attacks.

Attacker attacks: use attacker atk stat and defender def stat
Defender attacks: use defender atk stat and attacker def stat

So both are always relevant for all pokemon regardless of what it's used for.

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I viewed the "attacker" as the Pokémon I control to ATTACK a gym, and I viewed the "defender" as the Pokémon inside a gym DEFENDING it. As I stated earlier, I thought the attack stat determined the strength of the attacker's attacks, and the defense stat determined the strength of the defender's defenses. And that stamina determined HP in all cases. This, as I've already explained, is why I thought the defense stat was irrelevant IN the attacker.

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And if you take a closer look at the first few results you found, those mentioned Flareon as best Fire type were from 8 months ago, and even 1 year ago. Two examples are below:

https://pokemongo.gamepress.gg/q-a/best-fire-type-now-0

https://pokemongo.gamepress.gg/q-a/best-fire-type-now

As for defense stat, I understand you didn't list the DEF stats there, but it's more about the argument you made about Entei. You said "Entei isn't as easy because it has lower attack than the other two, but a lot more stamina. This means its damage will be a bit less but it will last a lot longer in a fight." - This is where you should really consider defense stats as well. How long a Pokemon lasts in battle is its tankiness, which is DEF x Stamina, so both are important in this matter.

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The age of the results (a) escaped my attention and (b) would've meant nothing to me even if I had noticed them.

Perhaps I should explain that I'm a very new player (barely been playing for three months) and was unaware of that any major changes in the game had occurred between three and eight months and even one year ago.

The poor choice of not considering the defense stat has already been explained to me.

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